Fire Side Chat
[07:10:08] (You): zen theme...
[07:14:40] (You): which gets expensive
[07:14:43] (You): it *is8
[07:14:44] Raju Ronzales: the trickling water, the chimes
[07:14:52] Raju Ronzales: *water
[07:15:07] (You): it's very peaceful
[07:15:23] (You): and you *can* be naughty ....
[07:15:39] Raju Ronzales: lol, in a meditative way
[07:15:42] Raju Ronzales: thats cool
[07:15:45] (You): yes indeed...
[07:16:40] (You): I have been interested in zen most of my life
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[07:16:57] (You): but if you chase down its roots it's a bit silly
[07:17:24] (You): if you strip out the stuff that makes sense you wind up with something else - I call it zen-tech
[07:17:31] (You): zen for the modern world
[07:17:35] (You): but even that ...
[07:17:43] (You): not sure I should call it "zen"
[07:17:52] (You): or call it anything
[07:18:06] (You): it's just my approach to life
[07:18:43] (You): I can even mislead *myself* by using zen terms and ideas
[07:19:11] Raju Ronzales: i have practiced, meditative techniques in the Indian school of Tantra
[07:19:18] (You): aha !!
[07:19:26] (You): now *that* is interesting
[07:19:41] Raju Ronzales: haven't been able to keep up though
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[07:20:41] Raju Ronzales: its about, the belief that everything in the universe is an energy
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[07:21:44] Raju Ronzales: the energy is latent in ones incarnated body
[07:22:01] Raju Ronzales: it is a peaceful embrace
[07:22:54] (You): I think that's about kundalini (sp)
[07:22:54] Raju Ronzales: through meditation and various yoga techniques, one can release the latent energy
[07:22:58] (You): chakras
[07:23:02] Raju Ronzales: yes
[07:24:12] (You): personally I have wandered away from meditative techniques
[07:24:30] (You): except to put myself to sleep or deal with pain
[07:24:57] Raju Ronzales: I just got so embroiled in business affairs, got derailed
[07:25:43] (You): there is a zen idea of "nothingness" like Buddhist nirvana
[07:25:57] (You): I think of that as a safe place to go ... a reset
[07:26:10] Raju Ronzales: nice
[07:26:24] (You): just to put aside all the mental issues that are making your life unpleasant
[07:26:27] (You): self inflicted
[07:26:39] (You): regret, fear, ego
[07:26:40] Raju Ronzales: nothingness is key to Buddhism
[07:26:59] (You): but of course nothingness is not nothing :)
[07:27:06] (You): there is joy, wonder
[07:27:11] Raju Ronzales: what I like about Tantra is that they do not reject the physical
[07:27:12] (You): but no "self"
[07:27:19] (You): yeah
[07:27:34] (You): there are 1,000 schools of Buddhism
[07:27:42] (You): like Christianity ...
[07:28:02] Raju Ronzales: lol, over time people want to carve out a niche
[07:28:07] (You): and "Zen" in the West has little to do to with the Japanese version
[07:28:11] Raju Ronzales: and followers, therefrom
[07:28:27] Raju Ronzales: like Yoga in the west and in its original form
[07:28:40] Raju Ronzales: lol, things get too commercialised and romanticised
[07:29:21] (You): body awareness is a way to *share* --- I don't like the thread of Buddhism that makes you wander off to a cave by yourself
[07:29:47] (You): there is a Zen "Bible" - an introduction to Buddhism
[07:29:52] (You): 1/2 is pretty standard
[07:29:57] Raju Ronzales: yes indeed, it's not about being secluded
[07:30:01] (You): the other 1/2 is about how Japan is heaven
[07:30:31] (You): I don't think we *can* be secluded - you wind up with a dozen people sitting together staring at a wall
[07:30:43] (You): naked in pairs makes a lot more sense
[07:31:01] (You): and more fun :)
[07:31:07] Raju Ronzales: I agree, sharing and allowing energy flows
[07:31:12] Raju Ronzales: to lose oneself
[07:31:21] (You): something you would really *want* instead of fitting it in to your schedule
[07:31:24] (You): YES !
[07:31:33] (You): you lose track of who is who ...
[07:31:39] (You): kinda merge
[07:31:47] Raju Ronzales: fuze together
[07:31:54] Raju Ronzales: in mind and body...
[07:34:12] (You): the emphasis on breathing is certainly right
[07:34:16] (You): I use it when driving
[07:34:36] (You): to bring myself back to the present - shake off random thoughts
[07:34:47] (You): bring myself back into my body
[07:35:33] Raju Ronzales: the rhythm of the breath
[07:36:05] (You): breath is both voluntary and involuntary
[07:36:18] (You): so it's a kind of bridge
[07:36:27] (You): "focus"
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[07:46:10] Raju Ronzales: at least the two of us are rezzed now
[07:46:13] Raju Ronzales: lol
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[08:06:33] (You): "experience" is the key - experience is "real" - even dreams
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[08:34:56] Raju Ronzales: one never ceases to learn
[08:35:06] (You): many do - very early
[08:35:23] (You): how is that? why is that?
[08:35:43] Raju Ronzales: maybe cause it is the easy thing to do
[08:35:54] Raju Ronzales: doesn't ruffle up the scheme
[08:36:25] (You): one of my pet theories is life is a performance
[08:36:41] (You): people find a role to play and lose themselves in it
[08:37:06] (You): from then on, just learn the role - seek an audience
[08:37:45] (You): simple example, a middle age guy buys a $30,000 motorcycle and hits the road
[08:37:56] (You): buys a costume, grows a beard, puts on 50 lbs
[08:38:18] (You): learns to "talk Harley"
[08:38:34] (You): very rare to see those guys alone
[08:38:50] (You): Jan 6 attack same thing
[08:39:13] (You): people growing into the role, not growing into "enlightenment"
[08:39:26] Raju Ronzales: that's the easier thing to do
[08:39:41] Raju Ronzales: most people opt for the easier choices
[08:39:50] (You): there's a whole psych theory of this - trying to remember
[08:40:00] (You): by the authors of "Games People Play"
[08:40:31] (You): I think "zen" is a way to escape the games
[08:40:45] (You): you can't play the game if you don't think self is real
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[08:42:02] (You): this is great - I should go back and re-read this
[08:42:17] (You): goes back for me to University days
[08:42:17] Raju Ronzales: it is a modern day classic
[08:42:36] (You): it's true but you need to identify games in your real life
[08:42:44] Raju Ronzales: lots of references with social contexts
[08:42:56] (You): but it's part of the answer to my question - how people stop learning
[08:43:48] Raju Ronzales: has to do a lot with upbringing too
[08:43:54] (You): o yes
[08:44:15] Raju Ronzales: i mean, some parents just drill certain misconceptions from day one and that can stay on
[08:44:16] (You): I know people with not a single book in the house
[08:44:39] (You): my parents wanted me to "make up my own mind" about things
[08:44:57] (You): that actually boils down to a huge life decision
[08:45:13] Raju Ronzales: i have a few friends, who read lots and lots....yet retain their dogma
[08:45:31] Raju Ronzales: one has to read and learn without a conditioned mind
[08:45:46] (You): confirmation bias
[08:46:20] (You): super powerful even if you are aware of it
[08:46:30] Raju Ronzales: yup
[08:46:58] Raju Ronzales: learning truly starts with un-learning
[08:47:06] (You): over the last month or two I have started to shake off a lot of the "Eastern" ideas ...
[08:47:14] (You): most of them already cherry picked
[08:47:37] (You): I am a skeptic at heart - that's "me"
[08:47:50] (You): scientific, mathematical frame of mind
[08:48:09] Raju Ronzales: to ask questions is important
[08:48:12] (You): I take good ideas where I find them
[08:48:45] (You): there is such a rich history of thought -
[08:49:03] (You): yes a good question is worth 1,000 canned answers
[08:49:30] Raju Ronzales: and asking questions is what brings about a new discovery, physical or metaphysical
[08:50:26] (You): what is your #1 metaphysical question ?
[08:51:56] Raju Ronzales: it's a vague one centered around how anything was ever created
[08:52:43] Raju Ronzales: as in how, the universe's' first spark happen?
[08:53:34] (You): a good one - or *was* there a first spark? It seems like that calls for the laws of thermodynamics not to apply right at the beginning
[08:54:02] (You): I think of the Big Bang as a theory that covers the observations
[08:54:19] (You): another theory may account for the obvious problems
[08:55:06] (You): the big question for me is how a bunch of meat comes to be an "observer" - even an ant or tree
[08:55:32] (You): I know "how" it works - kinda- but the more you learn the more mysterious it becomes
[08:55:49] (You): but your question and mine are the big ones I think
[08:57:45] Raju Ronzales: then one sees all these people embroiled in proving GOD exists...smh
[08:57:47] Raju Ronzales: lol
[08:58:20] (You): I think the idea of God simply puts a bandaid on it all
[08:58:38] (You): you still need to ask where God came from and what a "soul" is
[08:59:00] (You): if your culture accepts God, job one is to get past that idea
[08:59:22] (You): same with reincarnation - avoids the issue of where the could comes from
[08:59:30] (You): or if there *is* a "soul*
[08:59:31] Raju Ronzales: cause then they condense all the abstraction into a being and you are bound to that idea
[08:59:51] (You): yes and you just get on with life
[08:59:56] (You): buy a motorcycle
[09:00:00] Raju Ronzales: lol
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